Leafthief’s latest creation – Peony (L) and blue pea flower (R) using linocut in maroon (Photo credit: Leafthief Indonesia).

Agnes Christina, is a theater director, scriptwriter, painter, visual artist, textile designer, and owner of Leafthief – a long list of talents! She first joined theater when she was in Junior College and she fell in love with it. Inspired by her friend who did leaf printing on paper and Agnes was inspired to explore new material – textile – and ended up making products (shirts, pants, outer, masks, etc.) with unique leaf and flower imprints.

In this episode of aNERDspective (our NERD talk show where we converse with amazing friends about their textile adventure and perspectives), we talked to Agnes about her work in theater and also making products with leaf and flower printing.

Note: The transcript has been edited for reading format.

Tony Sugiarta:  Welcome to today’s episode and today’s top is brought to you by Leafthief Indonesia. Finally, we are able to sit down together and talk. We have Agnes here, who is the owner, designer, seamstress, all-in-one woman who runs Leafthief Indonesia. We will be talking more about her other endeavours, all the hyphens that she has.

Agnes Christina: I do too many things, so that is very confusing. (laugh)

So, maybe we can start with who Agnes is and what do you do?

I do many things, so it is really confusing when I have to explain what I do to other people. For now, my main income is from Leafthief (the clothing brand), but I also do scriptwriting for theater and visual art for exhibitions. I think for now, it is pretty much what I do. So, it is either doing Leafthief, making clothes, or writing theater script and visual art.

Right now, theater directing is a bit hard, you cannot have a live performance yet. For online theatre, unless you make an interactive play then it becomes a film. If you want to do a film, I think just let the film people do it because they know more about it technically. They have the skill, we do not need to compete. Maybe, we can also do performance arts videos, but to make a film, I am not that passionate about making a film.

How was your experience? You did one online, I am not sure if you call it a movie or an adaptation for screen performance.

Last year, Maling (Thieves) was an attempt to present an online story. That is why, last year I also called it “an online story”. The script was actually for theater, but then because of COVID, you have to adapt everything and make it into video. I do not want to call it a film because I think if you break down the whole thing scene by scene, the cinematography, and everything, it cannot pass as a film. That is why I just call it an online story because essentially what I am giving you is the story, not the visual.

After I did the online story, I tried making a platform for online theatre called Potluck Teater but it did not go well at all. At first, I thought it would be a good website, a good platform, so all theater people can submit their works, then we can help them sell the tickets. Potluck took in around 20%, which I think is quite fair, 80% of the ticket sales goes to the maker. But then, after three months, I shut down the website because the response was very low. If the audience response was low, I am quite okay with that because the audience also needs to adapt to a new habit.

What troubled me was the theater people themselves, it was actually expected. For theater people, most will probably do one or two shows per year so you cannot rush them to come up with a new show every month. That was the hardest part because when the website does not have new content, then I cannot sell anything and it was very hard to pull in the audience as well. So, I decided to shut it down because we are only three months old and when we shut it down, it will not do any heavy damage.

I noticed in Indonesia, online performance was not so big, if we were to compare it to Singapore. In Singapore right now, we have so many online performances or interactive performances through Zoom and sometimes create a new website for it, or pre-recorded and you can buy tickets through Sistic, etc. I think, in Singapore, online performance is really blooming very well. For Indonesia, not so much and I do not know why, maybe because we do not have the gadget for it. Not everyone in Indonesia can afford to have a proper video camera. Or maybe we just do not have any new ideas. When COVID came in, we all had to maneuvere our lives and career.

Everyone does.

We have to make a heavy decision, banting setir (change profession).

People are selling food.

Yes, because we have to survive.

Is it the theater practitioners themselves or the audience in general that are not attune to online performances?

I think the makers are not really adapting well to the medium. For the audience, I think late last year we had a discussion with nobar.co.id and we were talking about this whole online performance scene. For the audience, entertainment is still entertainment. They will watch it as long as they feel they are interested. For the makers, the competition becomes very tight for online stuff because you have to share the spotlight and also the market with Youtubers, films, Netflix, and other websites.

It is not just Indonesia, it is across the world.

We have instant entertainment of Korean dramas. Every month they will come up with new titles. It is really hard to compete with Korean dramas. Of course people will watch Korean dramas with all the pretty and handsome actors, then who want to watch online theater. (laugh)

You are one of the fans, right? You are a BTS army.

Yes, BTS happen. I really enjoy watching anything BTS.

I want to actually bring you back to where we first met. Both of us knew each other for a long time, from a chemistry lab. Not many people knew about us. So, we met in a chemistry lab and then you got a degree in engineering.

My degree was in Environmental Engineering.

And ironically, neither of us are doing anything that has to do with chemistry. Amazing. What has happened since?

Right after I graduated from NUS (National University of Singapore), I straight away went into theater. I think in Singapore, I was just doing theater. Oh, I worked three months in a shipping line company, but I couldn’t, so I quit. I did full time theater and sometimes I also did some designing, illustrations, designs for booklets, etc. So, that helps in terms of money.

After that, I was really living from one project to another and searching for residencies or programs. Then I got the program from the Substation (an arts incubator initiative in Singapore) for young directors, it was called The Directors’ Lab. After that, I started going back and forth to Singapore-Jogja, before finally I settled in Jogja and I lost my PR (Permanent Residency).

So, actually you managed to get the PR (status).

Yes, I have been a PR since university.

Yup, when they had a program.

And then, from theater to clothing line, that was actually a quite big jump, for me. I think one day, one of my friends was showing me how to do leaf printing on paper, then I thought if we can use this technique for fabric, then I think it will be very nice. I tried and it is not bad. Event after washing so many times the colour does not run off.

At first, I wanted to sell only fabric, like batik fabric, only one piece (1 by 2.4 metres). But then, after trying that for a very short time, I think only for one month, I realised not many people will buy fabric because for them it is quite a hassle. They have to send it for sewing and most of them cannot imagine how to put this pattern into clothing. But I can sew because before university, I actually took a sewing course. I learnt things from pattern drafting to sewing, (but) only the basics. The teacher was my neighbor.

In Singapore or Indonesia?

In Jakarta, Indonesia. So, while learning the basic pattern, she was a really good teacher and explained to me. Actually, if you know the basic pattern, you can do anything because sewing and fashion designing is only a matter of breaking down, mixing and matching the basic pattern. Then I got the logic as well, so I thought why not now? I tried making clothing from this leaf fabric and it was selling very well. So, I continue.

If you can share the journey of Leafthief, when did you start the brand and what products do you offer?

This year Leafthief is four years old. I started in 2017, around April. I finally sold it to the public in Kios Kaos Kedai Kebun (ed.: an art event). At that time, Kedai Kebun was one of the art spaces in Jogja. Every year they will have a pop-up store. Usually the pop-up store is from July to August or, sometimes, until mid September. I tried selling Leafthief and it turns out that it was quite a big hit. I only supplied a few items back then, it was all-size clothing, like an apron top or the boxy top. It was all sized because I wanted to play it safe. The sale was quite good.

So, the following year, I joined the pop-up store again and the sale increased two times from the first one. For the second time I joined Kios Kaos, there was more variety. I started to sell kimono outer and it was a really big hit because during the pop-up store, most of the people who bought were Europeans who were spending their summer holiday in Jogja. I think they like the fabric, so they bought a lot.

The third time I joined the pop-up store, I started putting on kaftan, for the tops also have more shapes, not all-sized. So far, it has been good. Then, COVID happened and I stopped stocking up and until now it is still on pre-order basis because it is safer. Actually, a few months ago, Jogja started having a bazaar, like an open market in an open space (outdoor) so it is quite safe. But now they cannot sell the event because the COVID cases are rising. It is not safe for us to stock up because for fashion, you do not really have an evergreen item. After a few years this model is going to be old. So, you have to keep updating the type of clothing. It is very unsafe to stock right now. But luckily, in terms of pre-order it has been quite good.

There are a lot more items that you offer too.

Yes. Right now, we are expanding to flower patterns also. Leafthief does have pelanggan setia, very loyal customers. These customers have many leaf prints, and they started asking about flower patterns. I cannot print from the real flowers because it will wither and it was a big fail. The flowers also have very high water content and when you press it, it is just blob everywhere so we end up using linocut. We carve the lino and make it into a stamp.

So it works like a block print?

Yes, it is very similar to block print, but block print is using a solid tool, this one is using lino (block) so it is easier to carve. So far the responses are quite okay, people start pre-ordering and asking for the flower patterns.

I was looking at it last night, but it is not on Instagram. I thought I saw flowers, but it is only a leaf on Instagram.

I put it already on Instagram (@leafthief.id)

It is a mix of leaves and flowers. So, we keep the leaves, not all flowers.

As the name suggests, you are “thieving” leaves. What is the story behind that?

The story behind Leafthief?

Or using leaves in the first place?

Using leaf actually was just because my friend showed me how to print real leaves onto paper. I thought it was a good idea for fabric. The reason is just that.

Leaf print or botanical print in general is a quite safe pattern rather than you do your own drawing to sell. It is a bit tricky to make your own drawing and sell it. It is a different marketing scheme. For botanical print, it is much safer and it is more evergreen, so I thought leaf is a good start.

Right at the start, I actually sort of had a plan. After leaf, I will start expanding bit by bit, it has to grow organically. That is why from leaf, then we expand to flower. Maybe after that, we can expand to roots. I still do not know. For now, we are still playing it safe and botanical print is safe.

Botanical print is much safer and it is more evergreen.

I agree with you that plant-based designs are safer options. It is very universal, it is not “ethnic looking”, country or culture specific, so it is very applicable.

It is nature-based. If you sell your own drawing and make it into a fabric, I feel it is very complicated because in the visual art scene, it is considered as an art merchandise. To sell art merchandise, there are many factors. First, price. Second, how popular are you and I am not. If you are popular, even if your drawing is bad, people will still buy. But if your drawing is really good but you are not popular, you will not sell anything. So, it is very complicated and I do not have that energy for now. It is a whole new world to tackle.

It is a pretty safe option to have something that people already know regardless whether you are a famous designer or not.

And also for leaves, why I call it Leafthief, because I really steal leaves from the neighbours. For now, I am still planting a plant, so I do not have a garden or even potted plants. So, I have to go to my neighbours’ gardens and steal some leaves. Or sometimes we go to the nearby school yard because they usually have many plants, then you pluck them one by one. You can also go the big road and at the sides they will have many weird plants and you can pluck it.

Do you have to use fresh leaves or those that are already on the ground?

Mixed. Some of the leaves have to be fresh and some we purposely dry it first. For example, acacia leaf, we pluck, then we dry it for two or three days before we print. The acacia leaf has getah (sap). If you use the fresh leaf, when you press the leaf on fabric it will leave a brown stain and it cannot be removed. So, we want to avoid that.

Is it also leaf dependent, different types of leaves have a different treatment?

Yes, based on the water content of the leaf.

You mentioned, it actually started when you saw your friend doing it on paper. When you convert it into textile, how was the transition?

For me it was easy because it is just a matter of replacing the paper with fabric.

Can you use the same ink?

Yes, because for printmakers, they usually use the same ink for fabric and t-shirts.

As I understand, this is a safe, non-toxic ink, and everything is safe when you put in in the drain?

Actually we do not throw the paint to the drain. In our process, we absorb everything using paper, like newspapers. For us, we burn the paper because in our area, we do not have the garbage man and people are still burning things as long as it is not plastic, it is still okay in this area.

I was listening to you talking about different treatments. Are there any specific leaves that are your favorite in terms of design or ease of use?

For now, I really like bodhi leaves, the one that have a heart shape with a very long tail. In front of SOTA (School of The Arts, Singapore), there are bodhi trees. I like that because the vein of the leaf is on the top side, not the bottom part of the leaf. The shape is also nice.

Normal leaf has the visible vein on the bottom part, but for bodhi leaf it is on top. So, it is quite interesting.

So, you print upside down?

Yes.

So, the vein will be more visible.

Yes.

We might have some collections that are on bodhi leaves.

I think so.

You can check out anerdstorebatik.com too.

I was just calculating, you started in 2017, that is probably almost the same time as aNERDgallery as well. It has been an interesting journey as well for us for the past four years. Then I think I saw you were posting for your first exhibition and I wonder if you do textile now and that is how we started reconnecting back.

So far during this COVID era, how is aNERD doing?

This COVID era, because I think we mentioned restrictions on going out. It is dropping in foot traffic and hence we started our first webstore last year during the lockdown, back in April or May.

Does the webstore help?

Truth to be told, it is quite challenging because the competitors online, you have to do marketing, all the different digital marketing, like SEO, social media marketing, etc. This is just to drive traffic to the website. There is no so-called foot traffic, basically you have to create your traffic through the webstore. That is for retail.

Then for aNERDgallery, because we are doing mostly awareness, education and exhibition. I was trying to look for a collaborator but most of them are in this field (ed.: Singapore creative industry that is geared towards production and performance) so I am still trying to work on how I can tap onto these resources to tell the story about textile, batik, and tenun Indonesia.

If there is no COVID, you should make a documentary about fabric. I think video art is interesting and you might be interested to explore that.

Video art as in animation or real-life shooting?

Video can be real-life shooting. You can just provide the concept and it does not have to have a story actually for video art, or maybe the story can be jumbled up a bit. There is no need to be a linear story.

Are you doing any artworks?

Last night, I was just finishing the last pre-order so I think for the next two weeks I am going to stop doing the pre-order first because I need to write some scripts. So I will be joining one of the Biennale Jogja Parallel events this year. I think I will be doing either embroidery or I am still opening any possibility for painting on fabric. I think I just have to see which medium is better suited for the story. The story will focus on the woman, women’s problem, minority, not so much about gender issues but I think, it is about minority versus majority.

A lot of your works, the one that I have seen so far. These are from the internet that I somehow managed to get hold of your performance with the Substation, Tambang Raras, was there an Indonesian version on as well?

Yeah, I did the Indonesian version.

Was it for Gallery Indonesia Kaya?

At first I brought it to Jogja, in Kedai Kebun. After that, restaging in Indonesia Kaya, then after that I presented a much shorter version for Borobudur Writers Festival. But that Reading Centhini series is still unfinished until now, so I plan to have five installments, so far I only do three, so I need to do two more.

You are aiming to do a 12-hour performance?

Cannot! I do not have the energy. I think, for now, I am not going to do the 12-hour performance but I am quite interested in releasing a book. So maybe like a compilation of scripts or something like a sketchbook, to document the whole process of these Reading Centhini. Maybe next year, wait for COVID to be gone.

The other one is Cinta dalam Sepotong Tahu.

That one was a live theatre.

Then I read the script inside the book as well. Part of it is about identity. Was that something that you are exploring, especially your “kecinaan” (e.d. being Chinese in Indonesia)?

Even though my environment does not treat me differently, you cannot change your race. I have to admit, wherever I go, people tend to look at me because I look a bit different, like my skin is a bit lighter, then the eyes. I sort of fall into the stereotypical Chinese in Indonesia, jadi pedagang (who became a businesswoman).

It is kind of defining the stereotypes. First of all, you are an engineer. Actually, I did not know about you doing performing arts until pretty late, just around the same time that I found out about Leafthief. So, I thought it has been concurrent. Have you been doing that since graduation?

In Singapore, it is very normal to see a Chinese face doing theater but in Indonesia it is very rare. Chinese actors now we have (seen) a lot in film, for theater not so much. When you talk about a theater director and a scriptwriter, a female, Chinese, Indonesian, there’s none. Because I think most Chinese will just do film rather than theater. It is more promising and cuan (more profitable).

I think that is part of being a Chinese creativity. In my personal experience as well, there is an idealism versus cuan. A lot of people asked why are you doing that, for example like why am I doing this interview, how does it translate to sales?

I think when I started doing theater, I was very idealistic like that. I do this for the art, you do not need to get any profit but then as the years go by you have to admit, you need money to live. At least you have to sell some tickets, at least generate some profit for yourself.

Let’s say for my Leafthief, sometimes I can give very cheap prices for some friends, but I make sure I still have profit. Even if the profit is only $1, I make sure I still have to get this one dollar profit because if not then I will not do it at all. Right now, if I do theater, some of my projects do not get paid but I can sell tickets. So at least from the tickets, you can split among the whole team. At least you get something.

Why did you fall into the theater? Why did you choose theater?

Very long story. I think it is deeply rooted from my psychological problem, a childhood problem and every problem. I love theater because in theater I learn to listen to my own voice in a literal sense because I used to be very shy, like not able to speak publicly as I was not used to hearing my own voice. In theater and during the rehearsal, you have to keep repeating the lines over and over so now I know my voice is like this and I have accepted my voice is like this. I can talk now.

I love theater because in theater, I learn to listen to my own voice.

When did you get first exposed to theater?

In Junior College. Then, I joined a Malay theater and it has been good.

You fell into theater and you continue that. You are able to listen to your voice and it is kind of a healing process for yourself?

Not really healing but gave me confidence.

What are some of the challenges that you face as a theater practitioner or an artist?

When I started, I was doing acting. Then, I realised that I am very bad with accents. If you are a good actor, you have to be able to speak in so many accents. I cannot do that, so I decided I should just be a director or a writer. I think that was a very wise decision because for actors, the competition is really tough and I feel choosing to be a writer is very beneficial for me. I only felt it when I started moving to Jogja.

You can be a director, but if you do not have any script you are nothing. If you have a script, you can just give it to any director, if they are interested then they will stage it. From writing, even if you do not stage it into something, you can turn it into a comic book, or some art inspiration, or some drawings. If you have a story, then it will be very useful.

I think at the core of it is the narrative, or the story telling. That is the most important thing and then the medium of how you deliver it, whether with drawing or theater or whichever medium it is (is later consideration). So we still need to have that story or the narrative to perform.

(Between) Singapore and Indonesia, is there any difference in the industries that you need to adapt to?

I think the working process is different because in Singapore in terms of funding you have this fixed pattern, like you can apply to NAC (National Arts Council), you can apply to several foundations then you might want to expand and ask for sponsorship. In terms of ticket price, in Singapore, we sort of have a fixed price, e.g. the lowest you can go is maybe $15 or $20. In Indonesia funding is almost non-existent. So it is very hard. The ticket price is also very different. In Jakarta, you might be able to sell theater tickets for maybe Rp 100.000 or Rp 200.000, around $10 to $20 SGD. In Jakarta you might be able to sell but in Jogja it is very hard. That is the biggest difference, ticket price.

The creative process for me, I feel it is pretty much similar. But maybe in Singapore, there are more non-theater people who will go and watch a theater show. In Jogja, you can count, it is very limited, (I mean) the general public who wants to go to watch a theater show. Usually, the theater audience in Jogja are fellow theater practitioners, university students, maybe some activists, or other artists from visual arts or music.

So, how do theater practitioners survive financially, in general, there, if the audience is so limited?

They have other jobs. So, theater is something they do in their free time. For their main job, some of them sell things or maybe they work in an NGO or they work in some arts institution.

As a director or producer, I think one of the interesting and kind of related to us is the costume design and textiles. What goes through your mind when you are producing, in terms of textile and costume?

I have watched many performances in Indonesia where the costume does not fit the actors. So, that really bugs me because you can see visually it is not right because the clothes are a bit too big, or too small, or too short, or too long for the actor. It is very disturbing to watch with all the lighting and sometimes you can see the threads fraying. It is really disturbing.

Also, we cannot be too petty about costumes because you cannot really play with patterns. This is my own opinion. So, when we have a theater production, first you do the character study and everything, before you set the costume. Most theater productions, I feel, you do not need to have any pattern on the costume. So, the cloth should be plain because it will make it easier for the lighting designer to light you up and the safest colour is always white.

If you want to have colour, I think you should really consult the lighting designer because sometimes, a certain shade of green will look very bad on yellow lighting, or maybe if you have red clothing then if you add some colour of lighting, it becomes brown. So you have to really consult with the lighting designer and if the budget allows then you can do several tests.

Then I think choosing the fabric is very important because sometimes people will opt for a very cheap fabric. Usually for stage performances, they will just buy the cheap polyester satin, that is really shiny. It is very bad and it does not give you any benefit at all, visually. It is very cheap, but to the audience who watch, it does not look expensive at all. The fabric that I usually use for theater performances is a cotton satin weave. It does not crumple up easily and it has a little bit of shine but not so shiny, so the shine is still elegant. Then, if you only have a limited lighting, e.g. yellow lighting only, the shine is still very good.

So, that is usually my safe choice of fabric and the second one is linen. Linen is more expensive, but it is very matte, it does not have any shine, it does not reflect anything. Linen also usually has this characteristic like after the first wash then you wear it, it starts taking the shape of your body so it is really nice, especially if you make the costume according to the body of the actor, so it is really customized to everything.

Referring to your “sometimes too big or too small”, do they not take measurements first?

Usually they have a stock. So they reuse the costume from an old performance to save money. It really makes sense, but then I think at least you need to take in a bit or something. And in my opinion, do not use batik for costume unless your audience is only, say, five meters away from you. If the audience is far away, there is no point of having batik, they cannot see the pattern at all.

True. But if the performance is something that is culturally or historically based, how important is that accuracy versus visual?

It is very important because it is historical based on facts and everything. You need to really research everything. But if you are doing an interpretation of something or a modern interpretation of some historical facts, that can be loose a bit. But if it is really historical then you have to follow everything.

When I watch a movie or performance, erm… I think, they do not wear that in that era (and I question that).

I think there was once, I watched some movie. The setting of the movie is old times. So the men are wearing clothes, like a cloak but Asian style, not the western style. There were some zoom-ins and we can see that the cloth of the cloak is of t-shirt material. It was very disturbing.

I think it all comes down to researching and getting the stories and narratives right as well.

How long is your research and brewing process when you are doing a piece of work, when you are doing your script writing?

It depends. Let’s say when I am writing a script, the writing might take only three hours, but I might be thinking about the story and all the possibilities of the scenario for one year. I have that habit of daydreaming then just collecting all the thoughts in my head.

The bad thing is, sometimes, I do not write it down. So sometimes I forget but then after a certain period of time of thinking, imagining, daydreaming then just collecting the thoughts in my head. The bad thing is that sometimes I do not write down and sometimes I forget. After a certain period and suddenly, something will snap and I will write. When the snap moment arrives, I just write, because in three hours it will finish and there is no need to edit. But the thinking, the imagining and everything might take one year.

For me, it is what I called “the writer’s procrastination”. We took a long time to just absorb. The writing itself is fast, getting all these different structures or ideas (is not). Sometimes I just think that (the writing) is lame and let’s just write it another day. 

I think it is the same across any other artworks as well, if you are doing design work or visual arts as well. I think the conceptualisation takes a bit longer and the production is quick.

I think once you get the concept then to make the artwork also like pretty much quite fast. But to get the concept, you need to weigh every probability and you need to see from this point of view and that point of view, etc.

So what are some of the projects that you are currently working on or upcoming stuff that we can expect from Agnes?

One is the parallel event for Biennale Jogja and the other one is the one where I write the script. I still do not know when it will be staged but it is confirmed. And I do not know whether I can mention the venue or the whole project, it is secret. But the Biennale, I can say.

For aNERD, have you done any online fashion show or any fashion show?

No.

Take the Digital Presentation thing (ed.: a grant by National Arts Council Singapore).

Oh, there is someone who is doing a virtual 3D model and it looks so amazing that it looks like an actual model.

But is it digital imaging?

Yes. So, she is a photographer. During COVID lockdown, she got nothing to do and she started learning about 3D imaging. So she runs a model agency, but they are all virtual models.

Let’s say you have a brand and you want to use their model, so do you send the real clothing to them or just send the photo or how?

I believe you can send the photos over and then she will manipulate it over the body. I believe you can do that.

Might be cost efficient.

Currently in the Singapore arts scene, the intersection of art and tech, a lot of people are looking into AR/VR/mixed reality-sort of technology, to enhance their work in theater or visual arts.

I think right now it is the standard procedure for a visual art exhibition in Singapore – that you might have the live version, people can go into your gallery, but you have to provide the virtual tour. It is like a standard procedure.

Now I feel very backwards because how Leafthief operates is still very human to human. I prefer to measure people’s bodies. I am so archaic. *laughter*

Any final thoughts or final words for us to conclude the video?

Really hope this COVID can go away very fast, at least international traveling becomes possible again. We have to admit right now most of our work, especially in the art scene, is intertwined globally. So when you cut off international travel, it is really killing so many people’s careers. So please, COVID, go away.

Yeah, definitely. Hope everything goes back, well, not exactly the normal, but get better soon.

When international travel is possible again, feel free to come, I will prepare a cottage for you.

You mention near Borobudur, right?

Yes.

Thank you so much Agnes again.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of aNERDspective. Check out the previous episode on IGTV and our gallery and store if you would like a piece of Indonesia for your home or wardrobe. You may also check out  Agnes Christina‘s Instagram and our store for some of Leafthief collection.

Photo credit: Agnes Christina and Leafthief, unless stated otherwise.